Ivan Zhao

Co-founder and CEO at Notion

Co-founder and CEO of Notion who spent the first three to four 'lost years' rebuilding the product from scratch, known for the sugar-coated broccoli strategy of hiding ambitious computing vision inside a friendly productivity tool, and for thinking of software tools as extensions of the human mind inspired by Douglas Engelbart.

The Visionary The Operator

Dimension Profile

Strategic Vision 90%

Execution & Craft 70%

Data & Experimentation 25%

Growth & Distribution 45%

Team & Leadership 40%

User Empathy & Research 65%

Key Themes

sugar-coated broccoli product strategy lost years of rebuilding from scratch tools as extensions of the human mind Douglas Engelbart inspiration balancing art project and commodity craft and taste in software design

Episode Summary

Ivan Zhao tells the story of Notion's founding, including the 'lost years' where they rebuilt the product from scratch to get the technical foundation right. He explains the sugar-coated broccoli strategy of hiding an ambitious computing environment inside a friendly productivity tool, drawing on Douglas Engelbart's vision of tools as extensions of the human mind. The conversation explores the tension between craft and commodity — making software that is beautiful enough to inspire yet simple enough for millions to adopt.

Leadership Principles

→ Sugar-coated broccoli — hide your ambitious vision inside something people already want, give them a productivity tool and secretly give them a computing environment
→ The first three to four years were lost years where we rebuilt the product from scratch — sometimes you have to throw everything away and start over to get the foundation right
→ Tools should be extensions of the human mind, not just utilities — Douglas Engelbart's vision of augmenting human intellect is what drives Notion's design philosophy

Notable Quotes

"It's sugar-coated broccoli. You give them what they want — a productivity tool — and secretly you're giving them a computing environment. That's how you get the vision adopted."
— On Notion's strategy to embed ambitious computing ideas in a friendly wrapper

"The first three to four years were the lost years. We literally rebuilt the product from scratch. Sometimes you have to throw everything away to get the foundation right."
— On Notion's early years of rebuilding before finding product-market fit

"Douglas Engelbart saw computing as augmenting human intellect. That's the north star. Tools should be extensions of the human mind, not just utilities."
— On the intellectual inspiration behind Notion's design philosophy

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